Madeleine McGraw Talks Working with Ethan Hawke

Every so often, a child performance comes along where you just know that the actor in question has the brightest of futures ahead of them. And that was most definitely the case for The Black Phone scene-stealer, Madeleine McGraw.

Scott Derrickson, who’s now co-written and directed two Black Phone installments, knew full well what McGraw was capable of when he first auditioned her for the role of Gwen Blake in 2020. The then 11-year-old was so convincing in the part of a devoted sister with psychic abilities that Derrickson refused to let McGraw’s scheduling conflict upend his plan to pair her Gwen with Mason Thames’ kidnapped brother character, Finney. 

As a result, Derrickson delayed filming until early 2021, and this was no small gesture when you consider Ethan Hawke’s involvement as the child-abducting serial killer known as The Grabber. Hawke’s dance card had its own obstacles to consider, and his casting presumably helped get the supernatural horror film financed in the first place.

“I honestly couldn’t believe that someone would do that for me, especially when Scott was willing to literally risk losing Ethan just so I could do the movie. I will forever be grateful for Scott,” McGraw tells The Hollywood Reporter in support of Black Phone 2’s Oct. 17 theatrical release.

The gamble paid off as The Black Phone became one of 2022’s most profitable films, grossing $161 million against a $16 million budget. McGraw’s younger sister, Violet McGraw, also starred in her own 2022 horror hit, M3GAN, turning the two sisters into Blumhouse royalty. (The McGraw sisters now produce their own films with their mother, Jackie.)

The Black Phone centered on Thames’ Finney, whose own metaphysical gifts of communicating with the dead allowed him to ultimately defeat his captor and escape from his basement dungeon. Throughout her brother’s captivity, McGraw’s Gwen relies on her prophetic dreams to help the North Denver police pinpoint her brother’s whereabouts, as well as all the other undiscovered bodies of The Grabber’s victims.

Prior to Finney’s disappearance, Gwen was interviewed by the cops about another missing boy, one whom she also dreamed about, and the instantly beloved scene established Gwen’s trademark sailor’s mouth. It was a more colorful version of McGraw’s audition scene, and so it makes sense why it kicked off her breakout performance. In Black Phone 2, McGraw has been upgraded to the de facto lead actor, and Gwen’s foul-mouthed takedowns are even more vicious.

The Grabber may be dead, but his evil spirit is still able to wreak havoc on the Blake family, as they investigate Gwen’s latest dreams at a remote winter camp called Alpine Lake. He wants revenge for not only his death, but also for the death of his idiot brother, Max (James Ransone). Mind you, the Grabber was the one who killed him, but he blames Finn for it anyway. Thus, he sets his sights on Finn’s own beloved sibling through her dreams à la Freddy Krueger, and Gwen has to fight the Grabber in the dream world while Finn tries to protect her in the real world.

“Once I officially read the script, that was when it all set in that it was Gwen’s movie. And I was just so, so excited that we were getting to dive more into Gwen’s dreams and visions and the [Blake] family’s backstory.  I was very, very surprised,” McGraw shares.

Derrickson purposefully made The Gorge in between his two Black Phone films because he wanted to ensure that McGraw and Thames were old enough to follow up their middle school-based original with a high school coming-of-age sequel. This pattern would suggest that a potential trilogy capper would be set during the Blake siblings’ college years, but McGraw is opting to not get ahead of herself just yet.

“It would be awesome to continue to grow with these characters. I also think that some movies [or franchises] should go out with a banger or on a high,” McGraw says. “But Scott and [C. Robert] Cargill are genius writers, and I trust them so much, so we’ll see.”

Below, during a recent conversation with THR, McGraw also discusses doing most of her Black Phone 2 stunts, as well as her dream to play another Gwen, Spider-Gwen, in a live-action film.

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Let’s start from the beginning. Scott Derrickson liked you so much for the role of Gwen Blake that he delayed filming The Black Phone until you wrapped your Disney TV show at the time. Your 11-year-old self must have felt quite flattered.

I honestly couldn’t believe that someone would do that for me, especially when Scott was willing to literally risk losing Ethan [Hawke] just so I could do the movie. I will forever be grateful for Scott. Seriously. Yeah, I am beyond blessed, for sure.

And if the first Black Phone was Mason Thames’ movie, Black Phone 2 is absolutely your movie. How did Scott deliver the news that Gwen would be the focal point this time?

I didn’t really know much about what the second film was going to be about until the day before I got the script. Scott sent me a kind of outline, but once I officially read the script, that was when it all set in that it was Gwen’s movie. And I was just so, so excited that we were getting to dive more into Gwen’s dreams and visions and the [Blake] family’s backstory. Yeah, I was very, very surprised.

Both Gwen and Finn are varying degrees of famous in Black Phone 2. She’s not only the sister of the kid who killed The Grabber, but I think it’s also somewhat known that her psychic gifts helped crack the case. You are also experiencing fame in your own unique way, so could you relate to what Gwen is going through right now?

Gwen used to be a lot more extroverted, but now that she is dealing with trauma from the past and more people have found out about her dreams, she has definitely become more reserved and introverted. She keeps to herself, and she’s more of an outcast. So I don’t know if I can relate to her in those ways, but I can definitely say that I don’t really think of fame that much, if ever. I just think of the fact that I am doing something that I love. I’m acting. I’m doing this craft that is so dear to my heart, and it’s something that I really want to continue to do. So I don’t know if we can relate on that level, but maybe we can relate to regular teenage life and trying to balance everything while people make all these rumors about you.

What about on the soccer field? 

The soccer field is definitely where I relate to Gwen the most. I am definitely a different person when I am on the soccer field. My parents say to me all the time, “Maddy, your Gwen comes out when you’re playing soccer.” I honestly just get so consumed by the competition that I go crazy. I am really aggressive, and I’m not afraid to speak my mind. So those are definitely ways that I can relate to Gwen, and I probably drew a lot from that when playing her. 

Does the opposing team ever try to get in your head by referencing Gwen or The Grabber?

Maybe they’re trying to get in my head, but it happens a lot. People say to me, “You played Gwen in The Black Phone, right?” And I’ll say, “Yeah!” And then I always feel bad when I am trying to get the ball from them after they say that to me. But I’ll think, “I’ve got to focus on the game. I’m playing a soccer game right now. I’ve got to lock in.”

Your original audition tape was for the “fartknockers” scene in which Gwen dresses down the cops in the principal’s office. 

Correct.

She gets plenty of these moments with a couple camp administrators in the sequel, and she really ups the ante due to her being older. Has Scott ever half-jokingly apologized to your parents for the things he’s made you say? 

(Laughs.) To be honest, I don’t think he cares that much about that. He really just cares about if I’m comfortable saying those things. In my original audition, I didn’t cuss. I didn’t say one cuss word because I didn’t want to cuss in front of my parents, and I just wasn’t really comfortable with it. But during rehearsals for the first movie, Scott was like, “Maddy, are you comfortable cussing? Do you not want to? Do you want to say fricking instead of the F-word?” And I was like, “No, Gwen would cuss. That’s what makes her her.” Cussing brings out that defiant side of her, and she’s not afraid to speak her mind. So it adds a lot of layers to her as a character.

On Black Phone 2, you had to film two different versions of the same scene. One is the dream-world version between Gwen and The Grabber, while the other is a real-world version for the characters who can’t see The Grabber. Did that process get pretty complicated?

We filmed the dream sequences all in Super 8, so Scott did a really good job of differentiating those two points of views [for the audience]. And when I was in Gwen’s dream sequences, I would usually have a stunt double or a stand-in be Gwen outside of her dream. So that would also help a lot. Or I, as Gwen, would just be sleeping if I wasn’t doing Gwen’s REM point of view. 

There are several sequences where Gwen is being thrown around like a ragdoll. Did you get to do your fair share of stunt work? 

Yes, I got to do almost all my own stunts, which was so exciting. I’ve never really gotten the chance to take that much initiative [on stunts] before, but Scott knows how much I love getting to do stunts. When I got to set for the second movie, he was like, “Also, I made sure to throw in a lot of stunts, and I told the stunt team that you’re down to do them all by yourself. I know how much you love them.” So I was so happy, and the only two stunts I didn’t get to do were the spinning stunts. I actually didn’t mind that I didn’t get to do those ones. But other than that, I got to do all of them by myself. It was a very cool experience. 

There’s much more gore in Black Phone 2. You really aren’t fazed by it since you’ve seen how the sausage is made?

Exactly. I am pretty unfazed by gore, and it’s because I’ve grown up around fake blood and special effects makeup my entire life. I’m just so used to seeing it around me that I’m like, “Oh, that’s fake.”

I didn’t realize this until my latest rewatch, but you never worked with Ethan on the first movie. So you more than made up for it on this one.

Yes, getting to work with Ethan was so cool, but I was definitely nervous to work with someone who’s as inspiring as he is. And being so familiar with his past work, I still can’t believe I got to work with Ethan Hawke. It was so cool to see how he approaches a character, especially a character like The Grabber, who is very different from all his other past characters. So I learned a lot by watching him, for sure.

Gwen chopped all her hair off in between movies. I’ve been telling myself that it was partially because her mom wasn’t around to teach her how to do her hair, so she just made things easier on herself. But then again, that haircut was fairly popular in the ‘80s. Did the script or Scott ever explain the choice?

Scott and I actually talked about this a lot. I said to him, “Do you think she would’ve cut her hair because of the trauma that she’s dealt with in the past?” And he said, “Yeah, maybe. But I also think it’s mostly because Gwen doesn’t care to fit in. She’s already an outcast. She’s accepted that. She doesn’t care to fit in, she doesn’t want to fit in, and she doesn’t care what people think of her.” She’s definitely the only girl with that haircut in the movie, so it definitely stands true to who she is as a person and how defiant she is. She just doesn’t really care what other people think, which says a lot about her as a character. 

The final scene is such an emotionally satisfying conclusion to the film. It’s my favorite scene by far. Could you feel it on the day? 

Emotions were pretty high that day, but emotions were pretty high almost every day on set because we do deal with some pretty dark topics and some pretty emotional scenes. I wish I could say more about that final scene because it holds such a very dear place in my heart. I’m just so grateful that I have a strong enough connection to Gwen. I feel like I can really become her enough to portray that kind of scene on camera. 

Are you able to rinse off the emotional work pretty easily?

When I was younger, it was a lot easier for me to shake off the emotional scenes. I would skip off set. But as I’ve matured and gotten older, things have definitely started to linger with me a little more. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about, but there’s one scene where Gwen sees a very, very disturbing image. It’s pretty traumatizing for anyone who sees that, but especially at such a young age. So I took myself to a pretty deep place in trying to portray that scene on camera, and I’ll be honest, I cried continuously throughout that entire day on set. It was maybe three or four hours of just straight up crying on set. 

When I got home, I was so mentally drained. The exhaustion and what I saw in that scene definitely stayed with me for a few days. I was then able to get out of it, but something like that has never happened to me before. So that was an interesting process to deal with for the first time.

If the first Black Phone was a middle school movie and the second Black Phone is a high school movie, are you hoping for a college years movie as the trilogy capper? 

I mean, who knows? It would be awesome, though, to continue to grow with these characters. I also think that some movies [or franchises] should go out with a banger or on a high. But Scott and [C. Robert] Cargill are genius writers, and I trust them so much, so we’ll see. I don’t know. 

I was a big fan of Megan Park’s My Old Ass, and you were that movie’s biggest cheerleader online. 

Yes, I was!

Did Megan really convince you to keep going as an actor? 

Megan has always been one of my biggest inspirations, especially as a woman in this industry. I look up to her in so many ways. Yeah, she inspired me to keep pursuing my dreams and to not be afraid to speak up to people and to say the things that I’m uncomfortable with. She’s literally such a talented writer and such a talented director, and I would love to pursue both of those things when I get older. She found me when I was little. She refers to me as her muse, which is one of the biggest compliments ever. I just love her so much. She is literally one of my best friends, and I miss her deeply.

I said this to your sister Violet McGraw as well, but I think it’s cool that the two of you embrace your sisterhood on screen. There are a lot of actor siblings who shy away from that sort of thing.

Our family runs as a team. We’re a squad, for sure. One win for a McGraw is a win for all of us.

She claimed that the two of you have never had a fight. Was she exaggerating? 

That is an exaggeration, for sure, but we’ve never had a serious fight. We have our little arguments or disagreements here and there, but we literally make up within seconds. It’s always over clothes or makeup or things like that.

Lastly, is it true that your dream is to play another Gwen — Spider-Gwen? 

That is literally my dream. That is easily one of my dream roles. I am just such a big Spider-Man fan, and that whole universe draws me in so deeply. I want to do those stunts. So I would do anything to play Spider-Gwen in a movie or any Spider-Man character. 

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Black Phone 2 opens Oct. 17 in movie theaters.